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Thor
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Valhalla, UK
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 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| clarky wrote: |
a formal academic institution is often very set and structured...
a great place to learn the rules....
not always the best place to learn how to bend and break them
unless of course you have a lecturuer that is still an active musician...
I think that one of the problems with music teachers
is that they turn into teachers... |
I think I'm very lucky that pretty much all of our music lecturers and staff generally have regular gigs outside, which makes the information they impart feel more valid.
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clarky
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1001
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: |
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I think we're all violently agreeing....
guys that teach music should be muso's first and foremost..
and then have the extra gift for stuffing all that knowledge and experience into someone else's head...
I remember hearing my oldest saying his music teacher didn't think electric guitar was a "proper" instrument
I also remember the inner debate as to the merits of dragging her over the coals for such a ridiculous and narrow minded comment..
and then thought.... nahh... someone with views like that cannot be changed..
so why bother wasting the time and getting all fired up about it....
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Thor
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Valhalla, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I imagine my mum thought a similar thing before I started playing. She was a teacher and very classical in her opinions. It took even more convincing for her to realise the Chapman Stick was a serious instrument too.
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"...then execute them"
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clarky
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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oh jeez..... lol....
even serious players struggled to take the Stick seriously
but then.. Levin has done some amazing stuff with it...
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nik harrison
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| clarky wrote: | oh jeez..... lol....
even serious players struggled to take the Stick seriously
but then.. Levin has done some amazing stuff with it... |
I love Chapman Sticks!
It really is the ultimate instrument for people who play piano as much as guitar! And I fit into that category!! I had one for a while and I loved it but it wasn't mine, and eventually I had to give it back to the person who it belonged to.
Must obtain one of my own sometime.... |
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Thor
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Valhalla, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: |
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It really is a fascinating learning curve, as you have to figure out what to learn and how to approach things before actually learning it. But that means that stick players have a unique fretboard knowledge. Eg every guitar player when asked to play an A chord, to some degree wants to do this:
But with an instrument like this, each player will have their own method of handling musical situations.
If you're interested in getting one Nik, the best way is to try and find a secondhand one. I found a guy in London through Stickist.com for mine.
[/url]
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"Put them in the Iron Maiden.."
"Iron Maiden!! -Excellent"
"...then execute them"
"Bogus" |
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nik harrison
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| clarky wrote: | I think we're all violently agreeing....
guys that teach music should be muso's first and foremost..
and then have the extra gift for stuffing all that knowledge and experience into someone else's head...
I remember hearing my oldest saying his music teacher didn't think electric guitar was a "proper" instrument
I also remember the inner debate as to the merits of dragging her over the coals for such a ridiculous and narrow minded comment..
and then thought.... nahh... someone with views like that cannot be changed..
so why bother wasting the time and getting all fired up about it.... |
At one time I would have agreed, but I know that I've changed some peoples minds that I would have previously considered un-changable! Like the people who see me sweep picking on a classical guitar and then claim "you can't do that!". Why not? And while you're considering why it can't be done, you can watch me do it! Evidently you 'can' sweep pick on a classical guitar....
Where musical instruments can be traced back to 2 main sources in the form of the human voice, and people banging a couple of rocks together, at what point did "proper" and "improper" instruments become established?
I might be a guitarist/pianist but I use a lot of electronic toys and samples in my own music which has come under fire from some people as 'cheating'. What about the loop station? Do we write off every technological advancement after a certain date in history, and if so what kind of future can music have if it's to be seperated from every last bit of technological development?
To suggest that the electric guitar is not a 'proper' instrument is a ludicrous statement. Change, evolution, and development are inevitabilties of moving into the future. Adolf Rickenbacker invented the electric guitar in 1931. Since then we have had technological advancements in incredible leaps! How many of those things does that music teacher use? or maybe his music teacher would like to use the means of transport, communication, and medicine which were around in 1931 because clearly the technological advancements since then aren't 'proper'? |
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Captain Steve
Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Aha, now I know where the soap box is! Only kidding Nik.
I see where you're coming from, on another site a youth tried lecturing me about REAL fans, as opposed to unreal fans I suppose.
Can anyone really define music? Lots have tried but there always seems to be something missing. To me, music is a series of noises (possibly including silences) that some find pleasurable to listen to. Almost anything can make a noise (or be made to make a noise) so by extension does that mean that almost everything can be considered a valid musical instrument? Or is it time for my meds? |
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nik harrison
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Steve wrote: | Aha, now I know where the soap box is! Only kidding Nik.
I see where you're coming from, on another site a youth tried lecturing me about REAL fans, as opposed to unreal fans I suppose.
Can anyone really define music? Lots have tried but there always seems to be something missing. To me, music is a series of noises (possibly including silences) that some find pleasurable to listen to. Almost anything can make a noise (or be made to make a noise) so by extension does that mean that almost everything can be considered a valid musical instrument? Or is it time for my meds? |
Since this is Clarky's forum, the following won't be out of place! Any other forum and I would have most probably had reservations about sharing this stuff:
Defining music is possible, although if anyone wishes to discuss music, it needs to be within the context of a shared and agreed upon definition. My undergraduate degree was (in part), seeking a better and more approprite definition of music on possibly the most progressive and forward thinking music degree course ever devised (BA hons Contemporary Musics at Bretton Hall College).
Back from 1996 (when I worked on a definition for about 3 months):
Music is the multi-dimentional auditory perception of the cascading patterns of air molecules which may be either sculpted or contextualised by a 'composer'. A composer may use various tools to sculpt these air molecules into patterns which have coherant relevance and sufficiently consistent patterns which an individual may relate and respond to in incalculably complex ways. A composer may also 'contextualise' sound and 'declare' that certain sounds and noises are a composition and it will successfully become a composition because the contextualisation will offer a 'frame' to the noises, and effectively seperate them from the rest of the sounds in the 'real world'.
(this is my own definition of music, and not an established or otherwise accepted definition)
John Cages "4:33" is a fine example of 'contextualisation'. Despite much debate, I would argue that "Silence" is very much a real composition by a real composer because what John Cage has done, is to successfully contextualise a period of time. Because this period of time has an obvious 'frame'. The "real world" has been given a place before and after the 4 minutes 33 seconds, and the composition has been offered a place in between the start and finish points. The people who claim this is "bollocks" have often fundamentally missed the point of this piece. "Silence" is probably one of the most important compositions of the last century. Where it can't be analysed or picked apart by the blunt tools of old which have been used to study music for years, this should mean that some better and more advanced tools are needed to analyse this music at a higher level, rather than be dismissed on the cruel and thoroughly un-scientific grounds that it "doesn't fit in with what we're used to". "Silence" is very much a piece of music, and an important contribution to the way in which we perceive, discuss, consider, define, and debate music. It might not be to everyones taste, but that could go for any piece of music from any era! "Silence" can also be played anywhere at any time, by anyone. It is the single most liberated piece of music ever. Listen to the ambient noise in the next 4:33, and you will experience the genius of John Cage. The "real world" will happen before and after the 4:33. Within that time, just listen. With a sufficiently open mind, 4 minutes and 33 seconds can change a lot about what you think about music. |
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Thor
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Valhalla, UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Very insightful and engaging stuff, thankyou Nik.
I think you're right about the Clarky forum. It's seems like hallowed ground for decency and intelligence, compared to so many argumentative overcrowded forums all over the net.
_________________
"Put them in the Iron Maiden.."
"Iron Maiden!! -Excellent"
"...then execute them"
"Bogus" |
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clarky
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1001
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| nik harrison wrote: | | clarky wrote: | I think we're all violently agreeing....
guys that teach music should be muso's first and foremost..
and then have the extra gift for stuffing all that knowledge and experience into someone else's head...
I remember hearing my oldest saying his music teacher didn't think electric guitar was a "proper" instrument
I also remember the inner debate as to the merits of dragging her over the coals for such a ridiculous and narrow minded comment..
and then thought.... nahh... someone with views like that cannot be changed..
so why bother wasting the time and getting all fired up about it.... |
At one time I would have agreed, but I know that I've changed some peoples minds that I would have previously considered un-changable! Like the people who see me sweep picking on a classical guitar and then claim "you can't do that!". Why not? And while you're considering why it can't be done, you can watch me do it! Evidently you 'can' sweep pick on a classical guitar....
Where musical instruments can be traced back to 2 main sources in the form of the human voice, and people banging a couple of rocks together, at what point did "proper" and "improper" instruments become established?
I might be a guitarist/pianist but I use a lot of electronic toys and samples in my own music which has come under fire from some people as 'cheating'. What about the loop station? Do we write off every technological advancement after a certain date in history, and if so what kind of future can music have if it's to be seperated from every last bit of technological development?
To suggest that the electric guitar is not a 'proper' instrument is a ludicrous statement. Change, evolution, and development are inevitabilties of moving into the future. Adolf Rickenbacker invented the electric guitar in 1931. Since then we have had technological advancements in incredible leaps! How many of those things does that music teacher use? or maybe his music teacher would like to use the means of transport, communication, and medicine which were around in 1931 because clearly the technological advancements since then aren't 'proper'? |
haaaa... and I two-hand-tap on my banjo... lmao
I think that those with closed and controlling minds, will simply get left behind...
leave them there and wave goodbye from pastures fresh and new... lol...
_________________
"life is hilariously cruel"
www.paul-clark.com
www.myspace.com/clarkymusic |
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clarky
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1001
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Steve wrote: | Aha, now I know where the soap box is! Only kidding Nik.
I see where you're coming from, on another site a youth tried lecturing me about REAL fans, as opposed to unreal fans I suppose.
Can anyone really define music? Lots have tried but there always seems to be something missing. To me, music is a series of noises (possibly including silences) that some find pleasurable to listen to. Almost anything can make a noise (or be made to make a noise) so by extension does that mean that almost everything can be considered a valid musical instrument? Or is it time for my meds? |
all this talk of 'real' and 'proper'... lol...
it's as funny as organic chicken...
what would chicken be made of it was inorganic??
stones or plastic or metal and stuff... lmao
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"life is hilariously cruel"
www.paul-clark.com
www.myspace.com/clarkymusic |
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clarky
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1001
Location: Berkshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:58 am Post subject: |
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first off......
I'm really glad you guys feel totally at ease expressing your opinions in this place..
that is extremely cool....
ok... my part in this is....
music straddles art, science and for want of a better term 'athletics'...
sadly, there are too many that focus too deeply upon the science and athletics..
so much so that they deem themselves 'experts' and consider the opinions of all else as invalid
they tend to forget however that the greater majority of the human race know next to nothing about the deep and dirty details..
and it is this majority that buy the majority of the CD's and go to the concerts...
they have specific tastes..
they do not understand why specific types of music or specific songs move them, inspire them, make them want to dance, make them feel happy / sad / etc..
they only know that they do..
in my opinion, this puts them more deeply in touch with the art...
over focus on the technicals is like the tail wagging the dog..
the intention of the music as a work of art has to come first..
all the rest of the stuff simply give you the ability to execute it and the language with which to describe it..
so there is in fact a very strong argument that the real fans are those that know next to nothing because their opinions are not clouded by the details..
they simply hear the piece en masse and love it for what it is...
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"life is hilariously cruel"
www.paul-clark.com
www.myspace.com/clarkymusic |
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nik harrison
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| clarky wrote: | | the real fans are those that know next to nothing because their opinions are not clouded by the details. They simply hear the piece en masse and love it for what it is... |
There is deep wisdom in that quote!
It reminds me of the absolutely stunning:
"Born an original, don't die a copy"
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Thor
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Valhalla, UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| nik harrison wrote: | | clarky wrote: | | the real fans are those that know next to nothing because their opinions are not clouded by the details. They simply hear the piece en masse and love it for what it is... |
There is deep wisdom in that quote!
It reminds me of the absolutely stunning:
"Born an original, don't die a copy" |
Agreed, I'll have to try and remember that one when someone starts mouthing off in a suitably muso-fascist tone!
_________________
"Put them in the Iron Maiden.."
"Iron Maiden!! -Excellent"
"...then execute them"
"Bogus" |
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